Hi Masryiaatl,

I guess what gets lost in this time of overgeneralization is the truth. For me it is that we are all the same. "Those people' only leads to demonization as if they are so different and alien from ourselves.  We cry, we laugh, we love and we are foolish and all the other things everyone is. 

This is for mostly for Shobidoobidoo, and for anyone else who doesn't have google.
"The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in which the United States resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent live. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest term, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on the innocent. God almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: "No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15)"

posted Sept 14th MSAN News

"[WE] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals...[We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world"
posted 19 Sept 2001 Al-Ahram weekly

"Besides the fact that they are forbidden by Isam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world...Isamist who live arccording to the human values of Isam could not commit such crimes.
posted Sept 14th 2001 france press

Do the research! It goes on and on from the bombing of the USS Cole, from what just happened in Bagdad a few hours ago with the road side bombinf that killed 100 plus there is even a statement from the Oklahoma City bombing. Christ Almighty please know what you are talking about and do your research so others won't have to do it for you.

Hey Shoo,

I think you are making my point.

HAMAS (in Arabic, an acronym for "Harakat Al-Muqawama Al-Islamia" -- Islamic Resistance Movement -- and a word meaning zeal) is a radical Islamic fundamentalist organization which became active in the early stages of the intifada, operating primarily in the Gaza District but also in Judea and Samaria. Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. In a January 2006 election, Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian legislature.

Hamas is a terrorist organization.

And of course the Human Rights Watch is alarmed by their statements..and rightly so. Now you said "you have to look at main cause of it" all one has to do is read what you have posted:

"The operation is a natural reaction to the continued Israeli crimes against our peolpe" ,and that the Pelestinian people are in a state of self defense, and have every right to use all means to defend ourselfs"

And anothing thing, when you are quoting something, please do not take it out of context.
Hamas is an radical Islamic fundamentalist organization which claims to be the Islamic Resistance Movement. Knowing that, you then have to ask your self why this type a group won in a landslide their  general legislative elections?
Because you chose Hamas to make my point here are some sites and books you should check out:
 www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm This site will show how far back this conflict between Palenstine vs. Israel goes
 www.masada2000.org/history.html This site is pretty easy to understand, and it will show the Palestines are "up in arms"

*Understanding Terrorism in America: From the Klan to Al Qaeda, by Christopher Hewitt
*Dictionary of Terrorism by Charles Townsed
*Origin of the Palenstine-Irael Conflict
*Terrorism and U.S. Foreign Policy Paul R. Pillar

You also stated that,  "For every statement of condemnation that you can find on suicide bombings, there is one in favor of it in the real world."    I was wondering if you could do me a favor? Will you please post three quotes "in favor", and also where you found them.  Oh and one more thing, none of the quotes you post can be from any known terrorist groups.

 Will you also post a link to the Human Rights Watch you quoted above,
Thanks Nubiam

Hey Shoo, Thanks for that dap, I love the peace symbol.

I think you've misunderstood me. I not trying to give you a "History Lesson". I wanted you to simply make your point. In your 1st comment your stated:

"Arab/Muslims are very quick to condemn, protest, and come out against TV shows and movies where a Muslim is shown to be a terrorist, but I rarely hear any Muslim condemning the actual suicide bombings that happen around the world."

That statement really rubbed med the wrong way, and I posted the comments that you stated you raley heard, and posted where you could find it. Then you dismissed those comments by saying:

"For every statement of condemnation that you can find on suicide bombings, there is one in favor of it in the real world."

I asked you to post just three of those comments that didn't come from any known terrorist groups, and you haven't. I would love to see things from your point of view, but so far you haven't shown me anything to go on.

As far as the history goes, it is I feel, extreamly important to understand what's going on.
The study of history has allowed us to give appropriations to the Japenese American's wronged in WWII, and even to some desendants of Slavery.  And yes, I can understand why people are fighting over land, and other property that has been stolen from them.

For an example, let's say you have an army, with all the bells and whistles. And you thought my house and land would serve you better than me, so you take it. So what am I to do with no army or LED's? I would thow rocks, flamming bottles of gasolise, and yes maybe even blow myself up. Because "if I can't have it niether will you". And hopefully you haven't missed the point, hopefully you have something you would be willing to fight, kill and die for. I know I do and it's not my house I used that only as an example. 
So your an atheist?  Never once did I think to point out what I see as flaws in your conviction. For you to post  "God does not exist; never has and never will." is just the same as if you were knocking door to door handing out those little copies of Jehovah's Witnesses books.  I could only image how hot you'd be if I directed you to a "power of prayer" site. Just take a minute to think about how'd you'd feel if I did. You'd be pist, wouldn't you?  Now you know exatly how Masriyaatl is going to feel when she see's your post.  You have to be more aware that you are not the only person on earth with very passionate convictions. And if you don't want anyone to step on your toes about your very, very passionate beliefs, please watch where you step.

Hi Masriyaatl, I hope beyond anything that I did not upset you, that was the very last thing I wanted to do.  I have had the opportunity to travel extensivly through out the middle east, asia, and africa.  I have to remeber that not every has had my life experiences or education level. And I could debate this issue until I can no longer breath, but if the person, or persons I am debating with do not take it upon themselves to be educated it will turn in to a shouting match.  I am so adamant and passonaite about this subject, that sometimes I get carried away. So, until I can win every battle :) I will do my very best to get along. I didn't mean to upset either you or Shoo. (ok, maybe I wanted to upset Shoo a little bit, but only because I took some of his commets personal and maybe I shouldn't have.)

Dear Masriya and Nubian,

I'm getting the feeling that you think of me as a muslim hater, most likely due to the fact that I'm criticizing your religion and the acts that are done in it's name.  Please allow me to assure you that I have a serious problem with all religions and all gods.  I am also not taking sides in regard to the Palestinians and Israelis...again, both sides are very seriously wrong in their beliefs, religious and political.  I agree that most of the world has turned a blind eye to the plight of the Palestinians, and that most of the atrocious and heinous crimes of the Israeli government has gone on for many years without any serious condemnation.  But, what kind of resolution is strapping bombs to yourself and getting on a bus and blowing yourself up into smithereens.  Killing innocent people will not make anything better and justice will not be served.  Just look at all the innocent people who have been killed by the Israelis in the occupied territories.  We can debate this issue forever, but peace is the ultimate solution.

Masriya, in your reply you mentioned that you refuse to be told that something you are so passionate about doesn't exist!!!  Let me first say that I am in no way trying to disrespect anyone, however I am respectfully criticizing people's belief in a sky god.  Just because it is something you are passionate about, it doesn't make it immune to criticism.  Ponder this for a second; I can criticize anyone's political views without being called disrespectful.  I can pretty much criticize any belief of others as long as it is done respectfully and intellectually.  However, religion and belief in god have for some reason become off limit to criticism!!!  Why?  When billions of people believe in certain dogmas and those dogmas shape our world and effect just about everyone on this earth, why can't it be criticized.  When you say you refuse to be told, you are one step away from taking away my freedom of speech.  Answer this for me; If I were to go to a muslim nation, lets say Saudi Arabia and I publicly denounce the existence of god and say that Mohammad was just an ordinary man; what would happen to me?  I think you know what would be the outcome of such an act!!!

I have not read your profiles, but I take it that you are both Muslims.  Why are you not Christian, Catholic, Jew, or Buddhist???  Do you believe in the virgin birth??? Do you believe that Jesus was the son of God???  Do you believe in the story of Noah's Arc???  Do you believe the story of Genesis???

I will leave you with this...In the world of science, where experiments are done and results are achieved, there is no shred of evidence for the sky god or a creator, None.  God, like you said Masriya, you feel in your heart and soul, which means it's all in your head.  Your heart's function is to pump blood through out your body, and your soul, well that's a whole different topic.  What you feel so passionately about has been taught to you ever since you were a impressionable little girl, and as a baby we are genetically programmed to listen and believe everything that our parents tell us, because it is mostly for our own good.  We can not afford not to trust our parents and experiment for ourselves, so we believe.  If you were born to Japanese parents, you would most likely be an atheist, think about that.

thought provoking posts...

this thread has inspired me to ask, how can the good people of this earth come together and live better? religion has unfortunately become an excuse/scapegoat for some people's hatred, finger pointing and political agendas. peoples skin, faith, place of birth, gender, has no bearing on the personal choice for how one chooses to live.  i believe that the majority of humans (spiritual, pious and non-pious) are loving citizens of this earth who choose to live "well" and that only a small minority of extremist, narrow minded people spread hatred and fear; unfortunately, extremist voices often make the most noise.  nevertheless, we can rise together one by one, hand in hand, as loving brothers and sisters of all faiths/backgrounds, and allow our collective voices, dreams, energy and love to spread.

inspiration and love are contagious, but it starts with you.

i believe, therefore i am.

life is good!

one,
-s

(ps: sorry for getting off topic from your original post)

Two thumbs up for Said!! I too believe that people use religion and personal beliefs to persecute and hate others who do not believe what they believe, look like they look or walk the same line as they do. Who was it that said "Can't we all just get along?" lol

I don't care what if you believe in God, Allah, Jehovah or just yourself. What I care about is how you treat me and others around you. If you ask yourself are you doing things to help your fellow man, whether it be small or big, whenever the opportunity arises and you can answer yes, then you are a good person and that is all that counts.

One love...
Lee

I so love the comments post by Said, Ladiablesse, but especailly by Honybee.  Honybee I don't think I could have put it as beautifully as you did. Thank you so much for your post. To answer Shoo's question, no I am not muslum.  But the fact that you didn't even read our profiles, and just assumed that we are both muslum just proves Masriyaatl's point that the world would be such a better place if  "every citizen upon himself or herself to be educated. Wouldn't this world be a much better place to live in? Wouldn't we look at each other more as brothers and sisters and less like enemies?"  Shoo, have you ever been to Saudi Arabia? It doesn't seem like it, but if you went to New York and screamed the very same thing, well the outcome of such an act in NY, is pretty much the same outcome as you'd rec'v in Saudi Arabia.

Oh Shoo one more thing:

Japan's religious history has been a long process of mutual influence between religions.  Shinto has been a big part of Japanese life ever since the beginning of Japan's history and continues today.

When Buddhism was introduced into Japan in the sixth century, it started to have an effect on the Shinto beliefs, and vise versa.   An interesting example of this interaction is honji suijaku, in which shinto kami were seen as the incarnations of Buddhist deities.

The Japanese religious tradition is made up of several major components, including Shinto, Japan’s earliest religion, Buddhism, and Confucianism. Christianity has been only a minor movement in Japan. However, the so-called “new religions” that arose in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries are a prominent feature of Japanese religious life today.
www.iniana.edu

Religions in japan are classified into Shinto, Buddhism, Christianity, and miscellaneous religions. Shinto is essentially indigenous, but has been heavily influenced by Buddhist ideas and practices. Buddhism and Christianity were both introduced from abroad, but the degree to which they have become indigenous to Japan differs substantially. Miscellaneous religions are mostly the so-called New Religions.
www.utexas.edu

honeybee...you said, and I quote: "what is wrong is telling people what they should or shouldn't believe because someone or something told them it is so (ie. Mullahs, Priests, Scientists)"  You are being intellectually dishonest to yourself and everyone else when you put Mullahs and Priests in the same category as Scientists.  According to your logic, we should not believe in any of the discoveries and advancements that scientists have made throughout our history; I have to respectfully say that your statement above is incredibly flawed. 

The word science is derived from the Latin word Scire, which means to know.  Science is the investigation of natural phenomena through observation, theoretical explanation, and experimentation, or the knowledge produced by such investigation.  Science makes use of the scientific method, which includes the careful observation of natural phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis, the conducting of one or more experiments to test the hypothesis, and the drawing of a conclusion that confirms or modifies the hypothesis.

Mullahs, and Priests do nothing to advance our civilization; Science does. 

"Examples of God's failure to protect humanity are everywhere to be seen.  The city of New Orleans for instance was recently destroyed by a hurricane.  More than a thousand people died; tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions; and nearly a million were displaced.  It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Hurricane Katrina struck shared the same belief in an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God.  But what was God doing while Katrina laid waste to their city?  Surely he heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there.  These were people of faith.  These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives.  Do you have the courage to admit the obvious?  These poor people died talking to an imaginary friend.  Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm of biblical proportions would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept.  But it was inept only by the light of Science.  Religion offered no basis for a response at all.  Advance warning of Katrina's path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery.  God told no one of his plans.  Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of God, they wouldn't have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces.  And yet, as will come as no surprise to anyone here, a poll conducted by the Washington Post found that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.  Why, because the survivors imagine that they were spared through God's grace.

It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.  It is time we acknowledged how disgraceful it is for the survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs.  Once you stop swaddling the reality of the world's suffering in religious fantasies, you will feel in your bones just how precious life is, and indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgments of their happiness for no good reason at all."  Excerpt from Sam Harris' book, Letter to a Christian Nation.

Later I will reply to your assertion that my atheism is a form of religion. 

Honeybee...this is my response to your assertion that Atheism is a religion.

Of all the absurd propositions advanced by religious persons, the idea that atheism is a religion may be the most far-fetched.  All religions have the same underlying premise: to avoid the reality of earthly existence and to get 'right' with some supernatural realm, whether it be God, Nirvana, or the 'oneness of the universe.  Religion thus functions as an escape mechanism, and its adherents are intent on escaping reality rather than confronting it head-on.  Some religionists claim that atheism is a religion because atheists deal with and concern themselves with religion. This is patently absurd; calling an atheist a religious person because he or she deals with religion is like calling a fireman an arsonist because he deals with fire.  The atheist is, or should be, a person with self-confidence and the ability to think freely, without the crutch of religious superstition. Atheists concern themselves with the problems of this world, not with ways of making Brownie points with some imaginary deity to gain entry into an imaginary next world. Atheists see many of the problems in the world as emanating from the same source: the irrationalities and immoralities of religion.

Atheism, based on reason, is a positive, life-affirming view. By contrast, religions, because they (at least in their holy writings) denigrate our earthly existence, are philosophies of death. Nowhere is this point better illustrated than in Christianity; its entire philosophy is based on a hatred for this life. Any system that teaches that this life is but a testing ground for eternal bliss is a philosophy of death.

Anyone who claims that atheism is a religion is completely ignorant as to what the basic tenets of what atheism (and religion) actually are.  Atheists will have none of this nonsense. They recognize the religious world as a fantasy world, and religious belief as a form of self-delusion that should have no place in a rational mind.

Actually, it is a victory for atheists when believers call atheism a religion; by doing so, believers are at least tacitly admitting that the word "religion" has become so discredited that even they are using it as an epithet!

Atheism, far from being a religion, is its exact opposite. Atheists recognize that if there is to be a "heaven," it must be made now, here on earth, in this life. And it is we who must make it.

Masriya...I will give you my word that the above posts by me will be the last regarding NO GOD.  Sorry to have hijacked your post.  Peace.

Nubian...I'll will try my best to be enlightened...thank you and everyone else for this engaging debate.

Love you all,

Peace.

everything is said above
we can know why muslims are terrorist if we know the history
from the begining the islam is criticised and muslims are suffered
the al kayeda who bombed on 9/11 was founded by america it self
it was formed by american fbi in time when there was russian assault in afghanistan
and given weapons
why there are largest factories of weopon in the america and britain as they claim to be peace lovers......????????
they are the biggest sellers of the weopons
and they are the true terrorists
there are some muslims who r terrorist but they are made by countries like america
tell me how they get weopons so many and money
no muslim billionair is giving money for them
if u think from charity then it can not be proven than it is a biggest lie of the world
so if we want peace then lets talk about simillarities and not the differences in us
lets not talk about past but think about a good future
do not continue enemity in ur heridatory
forgiving is theway to end the war
as quran says
come closer to each other in common terms and try to understand each other
so live and let live is the motto of my life
i dont believe in terrorism
there are many terrorists gruops of hindus christians jew but they are not related with their religion then why islam is related with irresponsible ativity of a human who is muslim?????

every body gets the complain that no one is saying against terrorist attacks than i would like to add that in india the worlds biggest islamic conference took place and the islamic scholars have banned terrorism and given fatawa that it is no allowed in islam and now they are giving conferences all over india in different parts gathering muslims and giving the right knowledge to them and guiding them to the truth

so there is no excuse left for the critics of islam to accuse muslims now

and about terrorist attakcs if u go on the site of cia usa it lists the attacks of terrorists on that site and you will find only 28 attacks of terrorists related to islam and out of them 26 are said to done by them and no proof available and 2 are said that al qaeda claimed they did it

if u see the list of attacks by hindu terrorists i.e. ulfa has more than 700 confirmed attacks and christians have many more than any other religion

so we cant say that religion is responsible for this attacks

it is the fault of the people who are aethiests and dont fear of god and just want to make money buy selling their waepons they keep the fighting going on and on by one or other means

so to get peace in this world to prevail we require religion

religion is not the cause of terrorism but injustice and opperession is the true cause of terrorism

may allah give peace and blessings on all of you

hi, William! thanks so much for your comments. it's so refreshing to know that you're having a good time in Australia and that there is harmony there. It's a blessing, and it would be wonderful if countries around the world would follow that acceptance.

that's great that you have such a diverse band! any of your clips posted here?

peace be with you, my brother!